On Becoming Anti-Racist From a White Man’s Perspective: An Interview with Ryan Brown
We recently had a conversation with podcaster and community structuralist Ryan Charles Brown about systemic racism and what it means to be a white ally. Ryan specializes in facilitating deep conversations meant to spark positive change in local communities. He is the host of Whiskey & Ry, a podcast supporting healthy masculinity and serves as a local community advocate through hosting panel discussions, community events, public awareness campaigns, and developing resources on topics such as: racial inequality, environmental challenges, and mass incarceration. Ryan is a motivated mentor and frequently volunteers his time speaking in classrooms and with small groups throughout Los Angeles. In his free time, he enjoys spending time with his family, cooking and watching soccer. In this interview, Tori and Ryan discuss how to “decenter” yourself in conversations, how to use your voice appropriately, and the importance of friends who call you out.
TORI: I’m curious how you first became interested in anti-racism work and where that journey began for you.
RYAN: I've always been interested in racial justice and equality. I became active in 2014 after the murder of Michael Brown. I was really impressed by the organizational efforts that were happening in Ferguson and felt that this was an example of people really showing up. I thought, this is what will dismantle this systemic problem that we have. It's going to take grassroots movements and people showing up on the ground.
I read a great book called Ferguson and Faith, and that book showed me how the Black Lives Matter movement is providing a unique opportunity right now for sending a message. As a white guy coming in and saying, “hey, I'm now going to support Black Lives Matter,” I thought, what if I started to actively think about how I would dismantle systemic racism? How would I respond and use some of the tactics that they do? At this time, I was also thinking about community organizing and small groups. I really love getting people together around common interests. So I thought, what would it look like to start gathering people around common interests of social justice?
TORI: Thanks so much for sharing that. So sounds like you've been invested for a number of years.
RYAN: Yeah, It's been about five and a half, almost six years since I really became invested, and it's been about three years since my first event that I organized. So, I've been in this for a while, which probably explains why I feel equal parts optimistic and exhausted some days.
TORI: So, Michelle (Dressember’s Director of Operations) told me that you host a podcast now. What does that look like and what is your mission in that?
RYAN: I was thinking about what I was going to do to move racial justice forward and use my voice appropriately. One thing I'm interested in is how to decenter your voice and be one that uplifts. So I started a podcast around social justice called The Mission podcast. I talked with different people in social justice, I talked with different authors, and I used it as a megaphone to amplify people who were already doing this work, people who were teaching me how to do it. I realized that it was a great thing for me to be in, but naturally, the conversation became a little too white male centered because I am a white male.
At the same time, I thought, there's still something about this podcast that I can do. Maybe I can't do this social justice podcast yet because I'm not there. I'm still learning. So I pivoted that podcast into what I have now: Whiskey and Ry. What that podcast is about is supporting healthy masculinity. But in doing that, I'm supporting a lot of the things that cause systemic racism. Also in terms of healthy masculinity, I now am learning from a lot more women, both women of color and white women, about some of the things that they go through with toxic masculinity. So I shifted my conversation to supporting healthy masculinity in the pursuit of dismantling toxic masculinity. I use that as a space now to amplify the voices of all people.
TORI: What kind of advice would you offer to white people that want to get involved in the conversation?
RYAN: The first thing I would say is understand that this pursuit is a marathon, not a sprint. So the first thing is be careful not to get wrapped up in just learning and posting and learning and posting and learning and posting. Quarantine is a great time to take a week or two off where you don't post, just read. Read books, read articles, subscribe to podcasts, watch documentaries. Spend a week or so watching material, reading materials, immersing yourself in material to figure out, what is it about systemic racism and white privilege that makes you really mad? Once you figure it out, there's a good place for you to start.
Learn and listen first, don't act just yet because you're going to get really emotional. Because systemic racism is crappy. White privilege is crappy, and it hurts people, it kills people. And that's really sad. Like I said, this is a marathon. So, take that time, sit with it, listen.
Another thing would be just to reach out to your black friends and just say, how are you doing? How are you feeling? Be there for them. Don't tell them what you're doing. Just listen, and get off the phone and say, okay, I feel X, Y and Z about this conversation.
“What is it about systemic racism and white privilege that makes you really mad? Once you figure it out, there’s a good place for you to start. ”
TORI: I think that's great advice. What does it look like for you personally to hold yourself accountable as a white person on this journey?
RYAN: The first thing is understanding that my work is never done. Once I get to one level of dismantling my own views, it's then about helping other people get through theirs. As a white person, I understand that probably for the rest of my life, I'm going to be involved in some sort of conversation where I say, hey, let's be careful how we use our words with someone. Then the other thing is just to decenter yourself from the conversation and use your voice when appropriate. Sometimes when white folks just stomp in the room and say, I'm so sorry for everything, can we all just get along? It messes things up. I would encourage people to learn how to decenter yourself when appropriate, because that needs to happen more often so everyone else can have a chance. We're seeing a lot of young black leaders pop up right now, and they're using their voices in positive ways. We need to just make sure that we're allowing them to do that.
TORI: What does it look like for you personally to magnify voices of color in your community in your daily life?
RYAN: Social media makes it really easy to follow interesting and informational accounts. There's a lot of people that do justice work regularly and are regularly posting about that. I would say whatever your chosen social media is, just branch out a little bit. Find an account or two that you like. Also, do research on what types of black-owned businesses you want to support. Start to follow them and start to promote them.
From there, subscribe to some newsletters. Find the people that really resonate with you and amplify those voices. What I think will really create the long term change is if people like you and I are recommending one or two people here and there that we're like, hey, this account or this book that I read changed my life, and I think you should read it. It's really those one-to-one interactions between people, typically white people, that will help move that forward. Don't overthink it. When you’re amplifying any voice, think, why do you do it? You do it because it resonates with you. And because you like it. Find those voices and those people of color if that's not something that you do regularly. It's that simple.
TORI: In your words, how would you describe what being a good ally means?
RYAN: Be an active listener. I have a dear friend of mine, a woman of color, and every now and then she says, hey, if you do something that is “centered” or white, I'm gonna put you in timeout for a little while. And it's not because she's a bad person but because I did something wrong and I need to learn. I think having those people in your life who can put you in timeout and call you out. I think that's really important having that person in your life because we all have blind spots we don't see.
TORI: What are some resources that you might recommend, personally for people that might just be starting the journey to understanding racism?
RYAN: A wonderful book to read is I'm Still Here by Austin Channing Brown. There are two podcasts. One's called White Homework by Tory Williams Douglas and another one called Hope and Hard Pills by Andre Henry. Also, there are a ton of women out there who are writing blogs. My friend Brittany Paschall has a blog, and her account information is @btpaschall. Follow her account, and in her account you can sign up for her email list. Andre also does an email list.
A great movie that's on Netflix right now is “13th and Time: The Kalief Browder Story”, which is another really important narrative. These things make you mad, and so I just sit with that, sit with that for a little bit, and then act.
You can follow Ryan on Instagram at @ryancharlesla and @whiskeyandrypodcast to hear more perspectives on healthy masculinity such as “How men express their emotions; The Good, the Bad, and the in-between” and “Patience and Partnership during quarantine.”